Audiobooks are the fastest growing segment in publishing and voice-first technologies like Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant, Siri, Cortana, and others mean that voice content will become even more popular.
But audiobook production is still expensive, so should you try narrating your own audiobooks? If you fancy expanding your creative into the realm of voice, as I am, you'll find today's interview with Lorelei King super useful.
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Lorelei King is an actress multi-award-winning audiobook narrator, writer, script editor, and creative entrepreneur. She is the co-author and narrator of Storyteller: How to be an Audio Book Narrator, along with Ali Muirden, and is one of the first inductees into the Audible narrator Hall of Fame.
- Changes in the audiobook industry since Lorelei started
- Tips for narrating your own work, including breath tips
- To use accents or not when narrating?
- Learning the lingo and techniques of narrating and recording
- The challenges of narrating non-fiction
- On the stamina and energy required to narrate
- Foods to eat, and ones to avoid, when you’re narrating
- On the future of voice and narration with the rise of AI
You can find Lorelei King at LoreleiKing.com and on Twitter @LoreleiKing
Transcript of Interview with Lorelei King
Joanna: Hello, creatives. I'm Joanna Penn from TheCreativePenn.com. And today I'm here with Lorelei King. Hi Lorelei.
Lorelei: Hi Joanna. How are you?
Joanna: I'm good. Thanks for coming on this show. Just a little introduction.
Lorelei is an actress multi-award-winning audiobook narrator, writer, script editor, and creative entrepreneur. She is the co-author and narrator of Storyteller: How to be an Audio Book Narrator, along with Ali Muirden, and is one of the first inductees into the Audible narrator Hall of Fame.
I'm so excited to have you here today.
Lorelei: Oh it's fun to be here. Thanks so much for that lovely introduction.
Joanna: Well I loved this book and I jumped on it as soon as I heard about it on Audible and I just got it.
How did you get into audio narration in the first place?
Lorelei: The first book I ever did was because I was in animation. The director had another job. He had this book of short stories and he needed an American female voice. It was just a matter of being right place, right time, right accent.
He was very nervous about using me because I hadn't done it before. But I just kind of discovered I had a knack for it. And he was really happy. He booked a whole day in the studio but we finished it in the morning. So he took me to lunch and we had a very boozy lunch as I recall.
I learned that after that that wasn't necessarily how the business works. And after that, I mean I've always loved reading. So it wasn't a hardship. I thought this is a good gig.
I served a kind of apprenticeship I guess you'd call it at the RNIB, the Royal National Institute for the Blind. In those days and I think still now had volunteer readers. You had to audition. They were quite strict about what they wanted and you would go in and do half day sessions.
I learned so much because you took whatever they gave you. So you had not just crime fiction or some was nonfiction all kinds of things. Book of rather elegant pornography by Anis Nin.
Joanna: Oh wonderful. I love that book.
Lorelei: I spent some years doing that. And I think that really prepared me to move into audiobooks. And when Shivers, which used to be in Bath, which I think is where you're based, then became BBC audio books they did the same thing. They had a lot of studios and it was like a little factory. We were little chickens pushing out little audio book eggs and stuff and that really solidified my body of work.
Joanna: Most of my audience are probably not going to be doing full-time narration like you do, but many authors are interested in narrating either their own books or potentially some in the same genre.
How has the audiobook industry changed while you've been doing it and are there more opportunities now?
Lorelei: That's a big question because there have been technical changes certainly. Just simply the way we record has changed.
It used to be tape reel to reel. You literally had to roll back if you made a mistake. Digital changed everything not just in this technique but also in the opportunities because audio then was so expensive.
It was normally only libraries who could have unabridged audio. They would tend to abridge books for the mass market, which ultimately a lot of people don't like. It's not satisfying not to hear an author's whole work. So digital brought the price down made it much more accessible for people to own than download again.
Completely changed everything as to opportunities. And that has led I think to more opportunities because people want audio. It's people want to do it. Maybe while they're doing other stuff. That's how they want to consume books. That's how they want to read.
Publishers are starting to look at their back lists and how to get that done. New writers are wanting their books done in audio. Self-published writers are wanting, as you say, to have their books done fiction and nonfiction and audio. So I think it's opened up a field because there's a big demand for narrators. And I think someone who really is determined and has even a little bit of talent to develop can have a real go at it.
Joanna: And so why this book, Storyteller, now? Is that was related to the changes?
Lorelei: No one's ever asked me that. It's a good question because I was clearing up an old laptop and I was going through some e-mails from ten years ago. I was pitching this idea to my business partner 10 years ago. I think I even pitched it to Audible in America ten years ago and at the time it just didn't feel right.
Ali said, “I'm not sure there's going to be the demand” and that kind of thing and I think she was right on reflection because digital hadn't really taken off the way it had.
But it never left me, this desire to share what I know. And as time goes on and I still do narrate a lot but also I do want to pass on some of my tricks and tips and just help people become narrators. So the time seemed right and we did it.
Joanna: I think the time is totally right. In fact, I think you're at the beginning of what is a huge boom. We both were at London Book Fair and we saw audiobooks are the fastest growing publishing segment. And of course, you can't narrate all the books in the world. So you have to train some of the people.
Lorelei: Well and I'm not right for every book in the world either. This is the thing; there's room for all kinds of voices and all kinds of styles.
Joanna: And actually that's a good question to start with. So the right narrator is a really difficult question. It's a hard question for an author who knows their own book in their own voice in their head.
How do we know who is the right narrator?
Lorelei: I think normally a traditionally a publisher will decide. Authors traditionally actually don't have a big say. Maybe a huge author would have a say as to who would narrate.
And the publishers have a lot of experience; it'll be the kind of book, the accent that's required, whether it's male or female. They break it down like that and they tend to go to a pool of narrators that they know or actors that they know.
It is hard to break into that for an author who has the ability to decide their own narrator. I feel for them in a way because they're hearing the voice in their heads and it's never going to be that. But I think those kind of authors will know better than anyone who they want or are the kind of voice they want.
If you're asking how would they find one, they could go listen to a lot of samples of voices. On Audible you can listen to tons of free samples and a voice might click that you think oh this is the perfect person to narrate my book.
Joanna: And actually you do a great thing in Storyteller where you give examples because you're a very experienced narrator and you give these examples of different notes and you change your voice, which is amazing
I wondered, from your experience, have you ever felt like this type of book is not my thing or I prefer this type of book?
Lorelei: Yes. There are books where I have thought I wasn't the right narrator and I'm just trying to think if there's an example.
This happened recently actually, I think I was the right narrator for part of a series, but for the rest of the series I thought it might require a British Isles narrator and I'm happy to say that I'm not going to be precious about it. It was one book. It still haunts me. It was many years ago and I do not believe it is available in any form and I can't remember the name every character.
The last third of the book was an American woman so it made sense they hire an American narrator. The first two-thirds of the book were set in South Africa in the 19th century with 57 male Scottish characters. That was one of the books where I cried. I ended up crying. I just found it too difficult and I'm still not convinced I was ultimately the right narrator for that book.
Joanna: Which brings me to another question and this is a totally selfish question around my own narration. You're an actress. You have pedigree in acting and many famous voices, Miriam Margulies in Britain would be a good example, do all the accents amazingly and you yourself as well.
But what about straight reads? There are some authors – Neil Gaiman, Stephen King has done some where it's more of a straight read. There are some narrators who do a straight read without accents.
What are your thoughts on that difference between the accent style vs. straight read?
Lorelei: You're talking about fiction, but for fiction specifically I think if you have someone like Neil Gaiman or Stephen King reading their own work that that brings with it something special in that they know what they wrote and they know how to interpret it. And I think that's one case.
To be honest I think generally speaking in the UK they like a bigger read, a more accented read, a more characterized read. My experiences in America is that generally speaking they prefer something slightly lower level, slightly flatter. That sounds wrong, but you know what I mean.
I think there's room for both and it depends on the style. Unless it's a comic novel when anything goes, although you don't want to sound like you're making fun of an accent. I think the suggestion of an accent is better because otherwise, it's distracting. But I like a performance.
So for my personal taste, I do like defined characters. Also, you have to be able to – this is crucially important and one of the reasons to do it. The ultimate goal is clarity for the listener is the listener has to know who's speaking. Otherwise, they're going to be pulled out of the story. Like what? Who said that? So that's often easier to do if you've chosen a very characterized voice.
Joanna: Which is really interesting and brings me to another question.
I've been adapting my own work for my own narration and that's what I've done when I've read a line and there isn't clarity and I know I can't do an accent. I've rewritten the line. Cheeky! And that's not what an audiobook narrator can do. For example, commas are something that editors remove
Are their other tips for authors who want to do the best thing for their narrator?
Lorelei: Oh commas. Well, there are things you could do. Probably one of my most well-known series is Janet Evanovich, which is the Stephanie Plum series. Now, for example, she writes brilliant dialogue. It is so good, so strong.
I said to her once, “Your dialogue is just amazing. Where does that come from?” She said, “I went took a drama class, an improvisation class, to learn about dialogue and to learn what works.” She did that specifically to inform her writing. And it worked.
So that's a tip from Janet Evanovich. It's not from me.
I think just technically things they could do to help. You mentioned commas. If you have long meandering sentences maybe read it out loud yourself and see are there places where people can breathe. Because that can be a real challenge.
I quite like that challenge, to be honest. I like to find a way through a sentence that can be fun but that helps punctuation.
The one that is almost impossible to solve is parenthetical remarks. By this I mean because something that works on the printed page won't work in voice. Where it breaks if you said something like: He saw the car. It was red. Not the red of an apple, not the red of a postbox. More the red of a broken vein. Car.
They work on the page but to do that book is impossible. You've got to make it sound in any way graceful or elegant. So maybe at least thinking about those parenthetical remarks.
Joanna: What about when a character is saying something out loud but then there might be something in their head that they're not saying? And maybe sometimes it's in italics as in it's in their thoughts and it doesn't say ‘she thought' it just has it kind of in italics.
Do you just kind of change the pitch of your voice?
Lorelei: You have to have several voices when you're reading, even if it's first person. Maybe that would be you have to have your narrator's voice for your reading, “Hey what am I talking about. She couldn't believe she said that out loud.”
You need three voices: you need your narrator's voice, your dialogue voice, and your inner voice. And that's just practice. Thinking about how you're going to do that. But those can be tricky.
This is where the art comes in of it. And the where the craft of it more than the art. The technique becomes so important.
Joanna: Coming back to the reading, then, because many authors think that a narrator just reads their work. Like you say, I think it's more an interpretation.
Why is narration an adaptation and a performance?
Lorelei: I think it's like a play. A playwright writes the play and delivers it to the hands of the actors who then interpret it and that interpretation becomes an art. And it's not just read.
Shall I give you an example?
Lorelei: So if I just read, “She had to calm down. With a superhuman effort, she gradually steadied and slowed her breathing. Why then did she still hear it? Ragged and fast. Oh, it wasn't her breath she was hearing. It was her killers”
Ok, I read that. I've got the information.
Lorelei: If I were to perform it, you have to be in the moment. It's like, “She had to calm down. With a superhuman effort she gradually steadied and slowed her breathing. Why then did she still hear it? Ragged and fast. Well, it wasn't her breath she was hearing it was her killers.”
So it's different. You're going to be more engaged with the second read I think.
Joanna: It's just so fantastic. You have this acting training. I think this is where many authors who want to do their own work.
But this is also why author events are often so terrible. Like book launches. It's like here read a chapter and the poor author is just terrified, trying to read out loud. But as you're showing it's more about inhabiting the moment.
When you're scanning a book, when you're preparing a book, how are you preparing yourself to be in that moment to perform?
Lorelei: I think when I'm prepping a book for narration I don't think you can prepare for being in the moment. You can prepare to help yourself in the moment by marking any peculiar stresses or and deciding your character voices and perhaps marking a breath of it's a long passage.
But being in the moment, this is a personal thing. For me, it's almost like being in a state of grace. Once you've prepared as much as you can the words know how they want it to be said. And I think you just kind of let it go. That's all you can do and not be self-conscious.
I think this is a big problem with people who are inexperienced actors or narrators is that they feel a little self-conscious and things maybe sound really big to them. Because I've worked with people who've not narrated before who are not actors. And they'll deliver something and I'll be like no more, further. And it's like oh my.
But in there you're thinking it sounds like some big clown performance but it doesn't. You'd be amazed. It's big in their heads. But it's actually just right if they hit it very hard. And that's just practice really and taping yourself and listening.
You mentioned writers at their own events. I always feel for them too because then it's nerves as well. I find that nerve-wracking.
Joanna: Yes. Another thing I think many people even coming on a podcast like this, people always say they don't like their own voice. And I'm sure it's been awhile since you felt that.
Any tips for kind of getting used to that feeling? Does it ever go away?
Lorelei: I think it does go away. It's funny you mentioned that. I remember the very first time I ever heard my own voice when I was young on a tape recorder. It was such a shock because we don't hear ourselves like other people do. If you put your hands behind your ears and push your ears forward you will hear yourself a little bit like other people hear you but otherwise you never will never.
The only way I think to get used to it is to listen to it. And that entails taping yourself. It can just be on your phone or something like that, or your laptop, and listen and get used to it so that you don't feel self-conscious.
Joanna: I've been podcasting now for 10 years so I'm kind of used to my own voice. But I also wondered about mouth noise because again you do some great noise effects on Storyteller, on the audio version.
I've got this clicky jaw thing that seems to happen and I think it's related to being dehydrated or something. And then also people feel like oh I just messed up a sentence. What do I do now?
What are some of your thoughts on not being perfect and the editing process?
Lorelei: Editing can help. If you're talking about noise, some people don't make so much noise just because of the way their face is. Ali says that I'm lucky because I don't have a noisy build. Some people are very smacky.
Hydration is key. Hydration is everything. Every couple of pages sip and slush.
You mentioned a cracking jaw. That's interesting. There's another thing too they call it a nose knock. I think some people have a slight sinus noise and there's nothing you can do to fix it and that's where you have to hope the editor can edit out extraneous clicks and all that.
But it depends on what kind of book. I don't think any book is ever absolutely perfect. There's always going to be a little bit of noise that slips through.
Joanna: And what about just getting the line wrong? And again you have some great bloopers in the audio.
But what happens if you mess up a line?
Lorelei: It depends on the technique that you're using in the studio. I like fluff and repeat.
I hate rolling back as they say, which means if you mess up a line you just stop, leave a brief editing break and then the editor can do it clean. You have to say it exactly as you said it though, so it will cut together. That's important.
Some studios use what they call rock and roll, in this country. Punching in, they call it in America. And that means if you make a mistake, you stop the roll back, probably to the end of a sentence so that it's clean. You'll hear yourself say the previous line and then you just say the line again. So there are those techniques.
Oh I'll tell you a little thing. I was so proud about our book. There's an author called Kristy Shen and she sent an e-mail. She's written a book called Quit Like A Millionaire. I think she's going to be narrating her own book and my business partner Ali is producing her.
She got our book and so she wrote to Ali and Ali said it was fantastic. She got all these really intelligent questions, saying what are we going to be doing? Are we rock and rolling or are we doing this? And she said having read it she felt really prepared, more prepared to go into the studio.
That made me so happy because that was one of the things we wrote the book for was for people to whom it's a mystery and who might be a little intimidated or not know what to expect. So that was great.
Joanna: I learned so much. And actually, I've listened to it twice already and I've obviously getting the hard copy as well at some point. It's very exciting.
I want to ask you about non-fiction because obviously Storyteller is nonfiction. You do fiction and nonfiction and I've asked about accents and things for fiction but some people think nonfiction is “easier” because there's no accents.
What are your thoughts on emotional resonance and feeling in nonfiction that makes it come alive?
Lorelei: I think nonfiction is harder. It has different kinds of difficulty like keeping it sounding fresh and not sounding tired. And as you say, if you're narrating your own work, something you've written, non-fiction than I think you bring to it your own passion which is really useful if you're narrating someone else's non-fiction.
That's the challenge, even though it's not your subject, not your words, is to keep it alive and warm and keep the tone engaged so that it isn't just flat information. I think that's one of the challenges.
You can have the problem of deciding what to do with accents. Sometimes if you are quoting people or if it's historical, you talk about historical figures and it's like what do you do? And I think it's a personal choice.
I wouldn't go for a full-blown JFK, for example, but you might want to give just a hint of something or use a quote voice. I have a quote voice, which I prefer to use when I'm saying something in quotes. I give it more like it's a quote. So you can use those kind of tricks but I think the main thing with nonfiction is stamina.
Joanna: Which is really my next question because the most surprising thing to me when I did my first book a few years ago and it put me off. I thought there was something wrong with me because I came out and I was exhausted. I was like I don't know what's wrong with me. Why can't I do this?
Talk about why is it so tiring and what can we do about that.
Lorelei: That is like the number one thing. I'm not going to mention any names but a certain fiction author I was hired to do a book of hers and she said she wanted to narrate herself. And then she phoned me again a half-day later and said, “Can you come back and do it anyway?” because she had no idea. It's nothing against her, it's just she had no idea what it took.
I don't know why it is. I suppose it's the level of concentration and it's intense. It's a really intense experience to narrate an audiobook. It is physically tiring and mentally tiring and your eyes get tired as well.
The important solutions are taking breaks little breaks. Don't eat up too much studio time but even just it's like a change. You need to change something. Stand up, change your posture, go up look at the light, go up breathe some air. I'm just going to the loo sometimes if it's not convenient take a break. If you say, “I'm really sorry I just have to.”
Hydration, of course. Drink, drink, drink, which gives you that loo excuse more often. And eat. You have to keep up your blood sugar. That's why in studios they have a lot of bananas. Bananas are great because they're not very noisy as you digest them. So eat little and often eat to keep up your blood sugar.
And that's the only thing I can suggest.
And you have to be conscious: don't let it drop. And that takes will. I do have a trick I use when I get really tired, if I can't take a break, you can, if you need a boost, pretend to read to someone and I think it works if it's someone you really fancy.
Just imagine you're just reading this next section just for them because you're going to want to impress them. It will help bring it a little bit alive. And I also read to my grandma. My grandma is long gone but sometimes I read to her. It just gives a little focus to that section and that can help.
Joanna: You can't see, but I've just built an audio booth in the corner of my office because of this reason because I've tried hiring a studio but I can't do like more than a couple of hours without feeling so tired.
I'm not doing it like professionally like you as a job. So I thought well, if I have a studio at home I can do. I can get up do an hour or two and then I don't have to keep popping in to a studio. That's one option I guess.
I think the sound equipment has got a lot better, hasn't it?
Lorelei: Yes I think so. A lot of people are using home studios now. I haven't gone down that route. I still prefer a dedicated, professional studio. But I agree with you. I think it's counterproductive to read for more than three or four hours in and if I have the choice I will only do those kind of sessions, I'll do a shorter session.
So I think it's smart, especially if you buy a home studio. You do an hour and then go do another hour that way if you can control it so much the better because it is tiring. At BBC Audiobooks we used to do ten to five, a full day's work and a lot of places work that way and it's hard.
Joanna: That's amazing. You mentioned drinking and eating, so when I went to the studio, the first one, I drank a lot of black coffee and I ate peanut butter. Milky coffee and peanut butter.
Why is that a really bad idea?
Lorelei: Do I look like a scientist? I couldn't tell you why, but for some reason milk and coffee … and peanut butter I'm not sure but that makes sense in a way.
Joanna: It's quite a bit clunky.
Lorelei: Yes and that's the same with milk and coffee. I love coffee but I try not to have it. I have it in the morning before I go to work and then don't have it during the day.
I've had to barter with narrators. I directed a book recently where he just loved his coffee and it was like we had to make deals where he could have a coffee and then he couldn't have milk and he had to have it black and they need to rinse his mouth out. Those kind of things you do have to avoid. If you keep drinking lots of water and cleaning your mouth out with water it should be should be okay.
Joanna: This is now the audiobook narrator diet: water and bananas.
Lorelei: Chocolate's not good either.
Joanna: What about 85 percent dark chocolate?
Lorelei: I don't know why but it's another thing that really makes for clagg.
Joanna: I just want to come back on the tired voice thing, because as soon as your energy drops, as you say, you use the word drop and I know what you mean but some people listening might not know what that means.
How nuanced can people hear? Do you really have to be on it or can we fake being on it?
How do we stop our voice dropping in that way?
Lorelei: To answer the first part of your question, I think people do. It's such an intimate medium and people tend to listen through earphones so they're they hear everything and the voice shows everything.
And sometimes shoot, it is faking it. I mean the best thing to do is not to fake it. It is to find somewhere in yourself, something that'll keep you going. The trick about reading to someone or just having a quick break. And because it does matter and it will show and it's not nice to hear.
Essentially when it becomes kind of flat, where someone maybe has lost the passion for what they're doing and also harder for the listener to pick out the sense.
Another thing you could do, especially with nonfiction, this is a good trick, is if you pretend even if you've written it you can pretend that this section you're going to have to teach it to someone in 20 minutes. So it just means you really pay attention to what's there. And you try to learn it, you're trying almost to memorize it. And I think that can help. It's just finding all those little ways through. I think it is important.
Joanna: And then just on natural voices: I sound like me, you sound like you, and that's part of who we are. And are there any bad voices so people can use some of your tricks in the book to make the best of what they've got.
Are there ever times when people just don't have a voice for narration?
Lorelei: I have two feelings about this. I shouldn't say that some voices don't seem to naturally lend themselves but I do feel very strongly about the importance of the individual voice. There are some things that are just bad habits.
If your voice is very nasal, for example, that's a habit. That's not a natural voice and you might need professional help but you can engage someone to teach you not to do that.
Or people who talk on creak, like a lot of young people do today, that's just laziness and that's a habit that can be corrected. Those kind of incredibly irritating habits should be gotten rid of I think.
But we are all unique. We have a unique voice and I think it's important to make the best of it, as you say make the best of what you've got, but don't be afraid of it or ashamed of it. It's your voice.
I know you're a writer as well as a narrator now and so the way you write, that's your voice. And the way you narrate, that's your voice. It's just as important to be true to your own sound and your own style and your own self.
Joanna: The last question I wanted to ask you is more of a futurist question, because I've already had a company ask about my voice and training AIs with my voice. And as a lot of your voice is out there, that could be used to train A.I.
We're seeing the rise of A.I. Amazon Polly for narration and lyre bird A.I. is something I've had to look at for sort of voice synth.
What are your thoughts on the next five to ten years when this type of technology becomes more common? What do you see?
Will there be a stratification, an A.I. narrated very cheap version, and then an artisan narration? What do you think is going to happen?
Lorelei: For narrators it's a worry. I think it is going to continue to develop. You mentioned lyre bird, something like that, I think it's incredibly useful for that. The way they use it for people who have motor neuron disease and that kind of thing to synthesize their own voices. I think that's a terrific use of it.
I've heard it's getting better. It still doesn't sound quite right to me. And I think ultimately will it be stratified. I don't know.
I think there's a place for it perhaps in things that where it isn't cost effective to have a human narrator, like textbooks or certain types of nonfiction. There might be a place where they can live side by side when it comes to fiction.
Can AI have comic timing? Can I understand nuance? Can they really be artists? I don't know.
I think art requires human intent and I think there's something about the human voice that will always put this in and that can't be synthesized, so I don't know. I'm watching this space that's for sure.
Joanna: I agree with you. And also I think people will want a person. For example, for your book, I want to pay for you to narrate it. But maybe there's an ultra cheap version I can get. Or if it's someone I don't care so much about their work, I might just want to consume something.
So I see at the different levels where there might be a cheap Polly version and then a human narration and because there's so much content in the world that's not narrated.
Lorelei: And that's the trick. This is why I think at the same time there's room for a lot of narrators. I think there's room for more of us because there is so much content. But audio is very expensive to produce and not all books will where a lot of books might only get one hundred downloads because it's very specific niche content. In that case it's better it's available. So it will have its place I agree.
Joanna: Great. If people want to check out Storyteller: How to be an Audiobook Narrator.
We've talked about a lot of things but anything else that's covered in the book that you want to mention?
Lorelei: I think it's just the thing about this book it's very strongly structured. I structured it to take you through the journey about preparation about what to expect and I think it gives you a good strong overview.
We've had really nice feedback about it. I'd love to hear what people have to say about it. It's available from all digital retailers, Audible as well as Kobo and all the others who are doing it.
And with a little push from you, I have to say, we just published the companion script because a lot of people were asking for a transcript. It's a direct transcript and it's best used in conjunction with the audiobook where you get the demonstrations. That's something that can't be done in print.
We have a web page, howtobeanaudiobooknarrator.com. Creative Content Digital, our publishing company, has it. LoreleiKing.com has it.
And you can always find me on Twitter @LoreleiKing and ask me. I like talking audio.
Joanna: Fantastic. And as I said I love it. I think it's fantastic. And I was so pleased to have you on the show because I think this is such an interesting point in history and I think you've hit the nail on the head with this book.
I totally encourage people to go and get it. And thanks so much for coming on the show Lorelei.
Lorelei: I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for your support. It means a lot. And I'm just very glad to have connected with you. I certainly see you. I've seen you on the Twitter beach for some time now but it's nice to meet you face to face.