Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing.
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Barnaby Jameson is an English barrister specializing in terrorism and counterterrorism. His first novel is Codename: Madeleine, a historical espionage thriller.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
- Research for writing historical fiction
- The challenges of switching to fiction as a non-fiction expert — especially with writing dialogue
- Deciding to use a pen name vs your own name
- The benefits of self-publishing — and the importance of valuing your intellectual property
- Becoming the CEO of your own creative endeavor
- Publishing services for self-published authors — and why Barnaby recommends White Fox as a premium publishing partner. [More in my episode with White Fox here.]
- Different platforms and methods for marketing your book
You can find Barnaby Jameson at BarnabyJameson.com
Shareable image generated by Joanna Penn with Midjourney.
If you need help self-publishing, check out my free ebook, Successful Self-Publishing, also available in print and ebook.
Transcript of Interview with Barnaby Jameson
Joanna: Barnaby Jameson is an English barrister specializing in terrorism and counterterrorism. His first novel is Codename: Madeleine, a historical espionage thriller. So welcome to the show, Barnaby.
Barnaby: Thank you, Joanna. It's a great pleasure to be here.
Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk about this. So first up, you are a busy guy. You're a barrister with important cases.
So what got you interested in writing fiction? And why write a historical novel?
Barnaby: Yes, I am quite a busy guy. My life is one of extremes. And so sometimes I'm probably the busiest man in the kingdom if I'm in the heat of a major terrorist case. But then I do, because I'm now a King's Counsel, get breaks between cases.
And so I can then find myself between cases having a little bit of time, maybe to go to Greece where I like to write, to have a bit of time to myself to do some writing. So it's kind of, in my life, it's feast or famine.
Joanna: And why a historical novel? Because I guess most people would say, “oh, well, why don't you just write a terrorism thriller?” Because that's what you know all about. Why historical?
Barnaby: Yes, that's an entirely fair question. And maybe the terrorist blockbusters will come, but I think I'd have to hang up my wig first because I can't write them while I'm currently in practice.
In answer to your question, I've always been interested in history. I read history, rather haphazardly at Cambridge, but it's probably the only subject that I showed any degree of interest in as a student.
I've got a particular interest in World War Two because I come from a post-war generation, but it's clearly a seismic event that I think we're still coming to terms with. And of course, it's moving now from living memory into the history books.
I've got a personal connection because my grandfather on my mother's side was an airman serving in Ethiopia in World War Two and also an intelligence officer, moonlighting for something called the Special Operations Executive. And my book is inspired by an agent of the SOE.
So apart from that personal connection, how have you done your research?
Because readers of historical fiction can be very finicky about what is exact.
Barnaby: You're absolutely right. And when my book was edited, every single historical assertion or description was challenged at every stage. And you're right, historical fiction writers (and readers) do not suffer fools gladly.
I read effectively the official history of the Special Operations Executive, written by an ex-serving SEO soldier during the war called M.R.D. Foot, who's since died. And then I read a series of biographies of the various characters in the book whose stories I have fictionalized, but they are based 90% on real people.
Joanna: So your writing process — obviously as a barrister, you do a lot of writing as part of your job — but writing fiction is quite different.
What did you learn about this different type of writing? How did you have to change your process?
Barnaby: One of the strange things about criminal work, which is the work that I do, is that it's probably more like fiction writing than any other part of the law. For the simple reason that in a criminal case, there is an opening speech by the prosecution and then there are closing speeches from both sides.
A case is a little bit like a story.
It's about an event that took place sometime in the past, and is recreated in court, and the prosecution has to persuade the jury that what happened in a certain way. And the defense obviously have a job to try and dismantle that narrative.
As somebody that mainly prosecutes in quite big terrorist cases, it is more like writing a short novella. And so some of my opening speeches have been up to 25,000 – 30,000 words.
And in the neo-Nazi cases I've been prosecuting recently, there's a throwback to Nazi history. And I'm obviously writing about the Nazi period in my book. And so actually, in my case, the writing in my work is actually more enmeshed with my fiction writing than perhaps would be the case if I was any other type of barrister.
Joanna: I guess that's, as you say, that's the story angle. But you're essentially, I guess, performing a monologue at that point. Whereas in a novel, I think one of the hardest things for new writers is dialogue. So it's conversations between characters that seem real because often they're not in whole sentences and that kind of thing.
So were there challenges in the actual writing of fiction that you particularly noticed?
Barnaby: Yes, and dialogue is one that you rightly alight on. And again, in a curious way, I think my work has actually helped with dialogue because sometimes I have to look at lengthy interviews between the suspect and the police, which is sometimes just pages and pages of dialogue, it's questions and answers.
And then in court, when I'm asking questions of a witness or a defendant, that is a type of dialogue. And so I think one's ear for dialogue, even with all sorts of different individuals, expert witnesses, defendants, becomes quite sharp.
But I think there is a bigger question in what you ask or what I interpret as something that I found difficult, which is finding your voice, basically, as a novelist as opposed to a prosecutor. And I didn't find that at all easy.
Just for me, it just came with an awful lot of practice rereading and rewriting what I had written. And eventually, I think I found my voice, but I suspect my readers will judge that for themselves.
Joanna: Also, I think it will emerge over time.
I mean, when you were beginning your legal career, you might have had 10% of the voice you have now. And I feel like as you develop, if you carry on with fiction writing, which I know you are, then that will be something that also emerges.
Voice is like a strength. Any kind of strength comes from practice and confidence that you build up.
You can't help but build up over time, right? There's no way someone in year one of a legal career is as confident and good as someone in year 20, for example.
Barnaby: One would hope that that would be the case, Joanna. No, you're absolutely right about that.
It comes with confidence, practice, and also, I think it comes down to the old-fashioned idea that unless you've done something I think it's for 10,000 hours, you're not really going to master it. So I think it does take, as we all know, an enormous commitment. But when you find your feet and find your voice, it's wonderful, as you know.
Joanna: This is a really interesting discussion because I know a lot of very smart people like yourself, who are experts at writing essentially nonfiction, and they really struggle with almost the difficulty of switching into fiction because the skills are so different.
And there's almost this blow to the ego as you realize there's so much you have to learn, even though you thought that you were an expert in some of these things. And I mean —
How have you dealt with essentially becoming a beginner again?
Whereas in your career, you're at the top of your career, now you're kind of going to the bottom of a fiction ladder, which is super hard.
Barnaby: It's really difficult. And I think that the process of writing is humbling. The process of writing and then showing it to other people, as in readers, is doubly or triply humbling. And I had to slightly hold my breath over the summer because I published, as you know, under my own name, see how my writing was going to go down.
I have to say, it's been, to some extent, quite a nerve-wracking process. But when I started to get the response that I've had from readers and bloggers and critics, I was able to let out a small sigh of relief.
But it's very difficult going, as you say, like snakes and ladders, right the way down to the bottom rung. But I have found that on the sort of other side of the mountain, having now got my book out and published, it's really heartening and wonderful to see people actually enjoying my work, even though I am a rookie novelist, as you say.
Joanna: And as you said, you published it under your own name. So this is your name, and I mean, that is an interesting decision because, of course, if people Google you, you come up in different circumstances, I guess.
So why did you make the decision to publish under your own name?
Barnaby: I took that decision because I was comfortable with what I was writing not, in a sense, interfering with my work. You mentioned a moment ago writing a terrorist thriller.
I think if I was writing a thriller that was intimately connected with some of the cases that I've done, then I think I would have had to have published under a different name. And I probably would have had to have, as I said, hung up my wig.
I think that the writing I've done is sufficiently disassociated from my day-to-day job.
But having said that, I have borrowed certain things from my work, as in one of the characters in the book is based on the barrister Francis Suttill, who was an SOE agent who was sent to Paris and ran one of the biggest SOE-backed resistance networks. He was a barrister who was half French and half English. And there are various scenes to do with Francis Suttill where he's having dinner at Lincoln's Inn or he's at court at the Old Bailey, where I'm actually able to use my experience as a barrister to make that authentic. And I think something would be lost, frankly, if I published under the name of Joe Bloggs.
Joanna: Fair enough, it's a difficult decision. Okay, so let's get into the publishing side because you have a lot of connections in traditional media. You absolutely could have got a traditional publishing deal.
So why did you decide to self-publish Codename: Madeleine?
Barnaby: Thank you. I did have various publishing deals or offers that were made to me. And I was in the extremely fortunate position of having a choice. I had offers that were made to me through the traditional route, both through an agent and also through simply personal approach from me.
So I was looking at the various offers that I had, obviously very grateful for them. And there are enormous upsides of publishing traditionally, as you know, but there are also some quite significant downsides.
The first obviously, is that your rights go for a fairly small amount of money, given the amount of work that's gone into a book, but that's a common problem. But for me, there were two other factors which I had to take into account.
The first was timing. Had I gone down the traditional route, the offers that I had meant that the book would not have come out until probably autumn 2024. And just in terms of my work, I had a juncture this year. This was kind of the now or never moment for me. And so the timing was something that really pushed my consideration.
And the other thing was this, I'm lucky enough to have a friend of mine called Olivia Williams, who's a great actor. She's just been playing Camilla in the crown. And she basically volunteered herself wisely, or unwisely, to become the narrator. And it was just talking to various people, that I realized that having the book read by somebody of Olivia's stature, was potentially quite valuable IP.
So to that extent —
I became actually quite cautious about handing over the rights for a paltry sum and actually hanging on to what was potentially some valuable IP.
And so that really is what tipped me into the independent route at this stage.
Joanna: Because of course, traditional publishing contracts now include eBooks, audiobooks and print. I mean, most of them are not letting audiobooks go separately, or eBooks go separately, right?
Barnaby: You put your finger on it, Joanna. And I was worried, deeply concerned about ceding my sort of queen on the chessboard.
And of course, once you've got an A list actor who has done one book, then there's a good chance that somebody else of her stature will read book two. I'm not going to give the name of the potential reader of book two, but it's somebody that we all would have heard of.
Joanna: I love how you've leveraged your contacts in such a great way to go the independent route. And I think that's brilliant.
But just coming back to what you said about valuable IP, so valuable intellectual property.
And I mean, obviously you're a lawyer, you understand these contracts and the value of these things, but many authors don't. So how would you advise new authors listening, people who have never been offered any money for their writing, and in fact, you hadn't been offered money, I guess, for your fiction before this.
How can writers look ahead to the future value of their intellectual property when they're completely unproven?
Barnaby: It's a very difficult question. And obviously, as a rookie writer, if you submit your work to an agent, an agent likes it and takes it to a publisher, 90% of you is going to be so thrilled that you're going to be published, that that is going to be the main driver of your emotion. The fact is that somebody is going to pay you, maybe I don't know, a small number of thousands of pounds for the rights and will then publish your book.
But of course, the contracts, as you've rightly observed, are stacked in favor of the publisher and against the author. I mean, that's just the way of the world.
And I think what's changed now with the independent route, is that people in my position, who are fortunate in having the choice of either traditional or independent, are able to stand back and say, “Well, yes, I'd love to be published. And I'm so glad you, the traditional publisher, feel this is publishable. But I'm actually going to go about this in a different way.”
And I picked up from your book on book marketing, How To Market a Book, one of the avenues open to you as an indie author if you decide to write more than one book and you write a series, is that you do have the possibility, if it works out, of becoming as it were, the next Joanna Penn. That is to say, the CEO of their own creative endeavor.
I think for me, certainly, that is very exciting. And I've got more books in the pipeline and I will review the position perhaps after book two or three and decide whether it's best to stay independent, or whether it's best to hire some of the publications off for traditional printing. So I'm just going to sort of watch and see.
But I think for somebody going into the profession, they have to ask themselves some hard questions. Are they going into it purely for the love of the writing, and sod the money? Or are they thinking, “I'm going into this because I'm doing it for the writing, but I'm also thinking about a commercial career here”?
And if it's the latter, then I think that there's a strong argument for being quite reluctant to cede all of your IP to a traditional publisher for a sum.
Joanna: I love that. I love ‘CEO of your creative endeavor.' I think that's wonderful. And certainly, I guess, that's the route I've chosen.
And so I know you wanted the book to be the best it could be and you were absolutely concerned with quality. And your book could stand next to a traditionally published book anywhere.
What publishing services did you use? Any lessons learned or tips for authors who are just starting out self-publishing?
Barnaby: Yes, I think the first thing to say is to underscore what you just said, which is that I think an independently published book should be able to sit on a bookshelf at the same standard of, or better, than a traditionally published book. I mean, that was the test that I set for myself.
And the way that I went about it was, first of all, I had it edited within an inch of its life.
I went to the Ink Academy in London, which is a wonderful service. It does creative writing courses, but it also has on its books some very good editors. And somebody called Marina Kemp, who heads up the Ink Academy, she took a look at some samples of chapters and she said, “Right, I know just the editor who I think is going to enjoy this book, and you'll enjoy working with him.”
I will always be thankful to Marina because she put me together with a guy called Phil Connor. And he edited my book and he edited it just so unbelievably well. And a piece of writing he produced at the end, which was a sort of critique of the book, was almost publishable in its own right. It was so perceptive and brilliant. And he's one of the people at the beginning of my book, along with you, to whom a dedication is made, at least as mentioned.
And so it went to him, and it then went through all the other editing processes. And at that stage, I got in touch with somebody called John Bond, who I think you know.
Joanna: Yes, he's been on the show a couple of times. From White Fox.
Barnaby: He's the CEO of White Fox, which produces, I think, very high-end independently published books. I mean, they are absolutely beautiful books.
My experience of White Fox is that they have extremely exacting criteria, perhaps even more exacting than some publishers that I've come across.
One has to go through a quality threshold in order to publish through White Fox, because as John said to me, I'm putting my name, along with yours as it were, on the spine of the book. It's White Fox publishing Barnaby Jameson.
That turned out to be a bit of a marriage made in heaven. There are other barristers who publish through White Fox. One is Bob Marshall-Andrews KC and the other is somebody called Nigel Lithman KC, who's a judge who's just written a book about being a judge.
And so there was already a relationship between barristers and judges and White Fox. And I found the team at White Fox extremely careful, with great attention to detail. And the book went out, as you know, for any number of different edits after the first edit.
But then going back to what you said about publishing under my own name. I also sent it to members of my profession, in particular Imran Mahmood, who's written You Don't Know Me, which has become a Netflix series, just to make sure that he was content along with all the other editors that this was the right thing to do under my own name. And so it had input from any number of different individuals, as well as writers who are friends who also read the manuscript very generously.
Joanna: So it's a real collaborative process. And as you said, I think you were more rigorous than — I mean, a traditional publishing house will be rigorous, but they also have a ton of other authors to work with, and they have a process and you go in the queue. But what you did is you worked with, like you said, so many different editors and so many different people to help you. I think you did an incredible job there.
So did White Fox do your eBook and your print book?
Barnaby: Yes, basically, they did everything. And they helped me sort out the audiobook as well. I mean, there you've got that sort of tie in with the studio, but they were deeply involved in getting the studio and everything else organized. I mean, Olivia herself was a great help with that.
But as you say, it was basically one big collaboration involving a lot of extremely generous people with their time and as people to help me with the print, the eBook and the audiobook.
Joanna: So was there anything that surprised you or that you were like, “oh, my goodness, I just did not realize that” or —
Was there anything that you learned that was unexpected or surprising in self-publishing?
Barnaby: I think having read How to Market a Book, I had a reasonable grip on the importance of marketing.
But I have to say, in the last few months, I have really felt how much attention really needs to go into pushing your book forward, pushing it into the limelight at every opportunity.
I'm particularly lucky because I'm a barrister, but there are other barrister writers within the profession who have put their shoulder to the wheel and have helped me. And so I've had a review from The Secret Barrister, who I think you would have come across.
Joanna: He's famous in the UK.
Barnaby: Exactly. He's tweeted about my book.
Somebody called Rob Rinder, otherwise known as Judge Rinder, he's a barrister. He's also did a bit for the back of my book, he put a bit on the blurb. And Imran Mahmood, who I mentioned a moment ago, they've really helped me with the marketing of the book. I found Twitter, I know it's going through some throws at the moment, but I found Twitter to be a very benign and effective forum, actually, for putting my book out into the world.
On the plus side, the one thing that I think has surprised me to my delight, are some of the book bloggers, many of them habituate the Twittersphere.
The people that did my publicity, Midas, they sent me on, I think what they call it, a blog tour. And so apart from getting reviews from established authors, like Giles Foden, I also had the book go on a blog tour.
It was when the reviews started coming in from the bloggers that I really was quite overwhelmed.
I was completely blown away that they obviously really felt very deeply about the book. It was really the emotion and passion of the bloggers I found absolutely extraordinary.
And of course, one blogger will quite often pass the book on to another blogger. And so some other people have sort of come on the bandwagon. And that has produced a little bit of a head of steam. And just today, a blogger gave away two copies of my book as part of a competition that he was running. And I was only too happy to help him out.
Joanna: You've done some great things. I mean, calling in favors and using relationships, that's just a core piece of the initial stage of marketing.
You mentioned social media there, you've mentioned book blogging and a PR team that you use. Now I know people listening are like, you know, “but Barnaby, earlier you mentioned about the importance of valuable IP.” How is your profit and loss looking? You don't have to give us numbers.
But it seems like for a book one, this is an investment, and this is not necessarily a profit-making venture as yet.
Barnaby: Yes, that's a fair comment.
I mean, looking at the numbers, I haven't yet recouped the outlay. But I'm not a million miles away. And I think a lot of that actually is driven by the sales of the audiobook more than anything else, you know, from a profit point of view, is the main revenue driver. And so it is an investment.
I think for any rookie writers out there, obviously, I wouldn't advise against selling the farm to go down the route that I've done. I've obviously put some investment into this. But I'm quietly confident, I would say, that in time, I will find myself moving from the red into the black.
And there was just one other comment that I was going to make, if I may, lest I forget, which is just going back to social media and Twitter, but it taps into marketing generally.
The one thing that I found in the last few weeks that people have really responded to very well are our little short films which I've put onto my Twitter feed.
And I've got a talented young filmmaker called Gabriel da Costa who's just put together a two-minute film which is of the prologue of my book being read, and you can hear Olivia Williams's voice.
And I've also got my technical guru and mentor, which is my 12-year-old boy, who's also done some compilation films of Olivia Williams, which again, you can see on my Twitter feed. There seems to be something about this sort of two-minute film that people can't quite resist watching.
And at the moment, I've now set up a TikTok account, although it's a fairly young TikTok account. And again, I think if authors have got any expertise in this area of putting together short films or they know whiz kids who can, that to me, I would say, has been a very valuable part of the marketing.
And just looking on Twitter today, more than 200 views of the short film that's only been up for a few days, which is quite a lot for Twitter.
Joanna: It's so great to hear about all the different things you're doing. And of course, you said, you're almost in the black. But you're also planning a series.
So tell us about the series? What will you do differently next time? How are you going to build on what you've started?
Barnaby: Well, thank you. The series is called The Resistance Series. And part of that was actually going to this very good editor, Phil, and talking to various people. And at the beginning, my book one was giant. And then I'd realized I'd really written two or even three books. And so it's been spread out into a series of potentially six or eight books.
And so with each book, what I'm doing is taking one particular SOE agent as the protagonist. You may meet them briefly in book one and then they become the protagonist of book two. You may then meet the protagonist of book two briefly, and then they become the protagonist of book three. Each title will have the word “codename” in the title. And book two, which is being written at the moment, is called Codename: God-Given.
I think in terms of doing things differently, I'm going to have a winter launch next year as opposed to a summer launch, only because I just think it'll just be a little bit different. I think I will really up my game in terms of short films.
And so what I would like to do is to have a short film going out on my Twitter feed, maybe every week when the book first comes out. Or what I'm thinking of doing at the moment is taking one character from the book and then making a short film about them. And then week two, you get an introduction to another character. And as I said, there's something about the 90-second film that people sort of can't resist.
And so I think, really, it's just trying to build on some of the small successes that I've had this year, building my relationship with very passionate book bloggers, and then building my followers on social media. You know, I haven't at the moment got a mass following because I didn't really start this until I started to take my books out. But I would hope that my following, like yours, will grow as I grow as a writer.
I'd like to beef up my website and rejig it so that potential readers can sign up. And I've got a bit of work to do with my web designer. But I think in answer to your question, it's really building on the foundations that I've laid this year.
Joanna: So have you got an email list?
Have you been building an email list from that book one?
Barnaby: The answer is, I have to slap myself on the wrist here, Joanna. That's one part of my website that I've actually got to organize.
And so what I will have, as of next week, is a system whereby if you sign up onto the reading list, you basically get a copy of your own of the prologue. But I've just got to organize that with my web designer. So that's one thing that I'm a little bit behind on. And so I hope that by next year, I will have a reading list that's been built from now, effectively.
[Note from Joanna: I use ConvertKit for my email list. It's really easy to use and set up.]
Joanna: Well, I can actually hear some people are quite relieved that you haven't done everything perfectly!
Because I mean, sometimes people feel like there's so much to do, and there is so much to do even if you're working with outsourced services. But still, you have to manage everything, right, with your job and your family and all of this. So the fact that you managed to not do everything is completely normal.
Barnaby: Thank you, thank you for saying that, Joanna. And by no means have I done everything perfect. And as you rightly observed, I mean, you're learning all the time.
I didn't know what Amazon KDP was at the very beginning. I didn't know anything.
And in a sense, it's a relief to know how little I did know. Had I at the time realized how little I knew, who knows what I would have done?
I think if you're willing, as you say, to learn and just to go out into the world, I found that the response has been positive.
Because I think people respect the fact, and admire the fact, that you're putting yourself out there, your book is an expression of your soul in the pages of a book. And I think if you've got the courage to do that, people respond. I mean, you know this as an established author, and when they respond very viscerally, it makes everything worthwhile.
Joanna: You work in a very traditional industry. You've mentioned your wig and a lot of people are listening outside of the UK. I'll have to get a picture of you and put it on the show notes with all your gear on.
But I mean, it's a very traditional industry and people respect tradition. So what's been the response? You mentioned there that you have had a lot of great responses and friends helping —
But have people looked down on you at all for self-publishing? Do you feel like the so-called “stigma” is just not there anymore?
Barnaby: I don't think it's really occurred to people, if that's the honest answer. I mean, I think that unless somebody really knows about books. If a reader is somebody, you know, from the publishing world, the first thing they'll do is really turn to the first page and see who the publisher is.
But I think most readers, if they see a well-produced book, and some blurb on the back and some reviews, I don't think that they actually are really that concerned about which route you took it to market.
I think probably that's what's changed within the publishing industry. And I think that the traditional publishers, to some extent, should be looking over their shoulders.
Because people like me coming along, they don't have two years to wait around for their book to go through the system. And so we're in a sense, jumping the queue. And I think it's, in a way, quite healthy for the traditional publishing industry to realize that there is another way open for authors like me. And I think competition is good.
Joanna: Absolutely. And then final question. You mentioned earlier being the CEO of your own creative endeavor and going into the profession. So where are you going to be in 10 years' time? Is this the way you're going?
Are you going to hang up your wig and become a full-time writer? Is that in the future?
Barnaby: Well, I think the truthful answer is I'm not quite sure yet. What I would say, is that as a counterterrorist prosecutor, of living a life of such extremes, that it's not really something you can do forever. And most of my colleagues have moved on into the judicial space or some other space because it's really not a sustainable life, although it's a very rewarding one.
But in 10 years' time, I think if things go to plan and I've got six or eight books out by that stage, and I have a miniature creative empire, I think I'd be very happy with that. And I take an enormous feather out of your cap and a leaf out of your book. And if I could emulate even a tiny amount of what you've done in this space, I think I'd be very, very happy and rewarded.
Joanna: You're very sweet.
Where can people find you and Codename: Madeleine and everything you do online?
Barnaby: Okay, probably the first port of call is going to be BarnabyJameson.com. It sometimes comes out as BarnabyJamesonWriter.com. That will give you a pointer exactly where to go. There's a button you can click for Amazon and other outlets as well. But the main internet outlets are Amazon.com and Apple.
Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Barnaby. That was great.
Barnaby: Thank you, Joanna. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.