I’ve been at two publishing conferences in the last week and it’s evident that myths and misconceptions abound when it comes to independent authors and self-publishing.
Book Machine’s Publishing Now even had a debate on the motion “Self-publishing is devaluing publishing.” In a heated discussion afterwards, I could see that the definition of ‘indie’ as it applies to authors is still misunderstood. Of course, when mainstream publishers like Penguin announce their own self-publishing arms, it can be difficult to know what the hell is going on!
This is further demonstrated in the leaked Hachette internal memo on the relevance of publishing companies where they equate self-publishing with just digital distribution, which we (hopefully) all know is only the final step in the process. Joe Konrath & Barry Eisler respond with their comments here which is worth a read.
Eisler defines self-publishing: ‘it means you keep the rights to your book and publish it yourself using distributor/retailers like Amazon, Apple, B&N, Kobo, Smashwords, and Sony, typically retaining 70% of the cover price instead of the 17.5% offered by legacy publishers (for digital editions). This isn’t what “most people” mean when they say self-publishing; it’s what everybody means when they say self-publishing.
But it’s true that to many people self-publishing means bad quality books with no editing published by one of the vanity presses and the main concern is that this crap is flooding the world and readers can’t find quality in the mass of rubbish. I know these books do exist but I hope you agree that we can do a lot better than that these days. I also believe that readers are the new gatekeepers so sales online, reviews and rankings will ensure that the cream rises and bad stuff drops out of the picture.
The term ‘indie author’ has been increasingly claimed by authors who want a new label, one that does justice to the work involved.
This is my take on the subject but please add your comments and thoughts as it is definitely a moving target and no doubt there will be continued debate on it. I do mean for this to be an inclusive definition and you may sit somewhere on the spectrum of indie or you may be traditionally published. People have different aims for their books and their writing careers and I respect your choices, I just wanted to add to the debate!
Indie author means truly independent
At its most basic, indie means there is no separate publisher involved. Many indies may have setup their own micro-press, so their books still have a publisher name that is not the author’s name but the publisher is not one of the author services companies. The indie author most likely owns their own ISBNs. The indie pays the bills and is paid by the distributors e.g. Amazon/Smashwords directly. The only middleman is the distributor.
There has been a blurring of the line between indie author and indie publisher that seems to be mostly related to size and scope of the business. I am an indie publisher of my own books so it’s basically the same thing as being an indie author, but there are small & midsize independent publishing houses who don’t like the term indie being used for people like me. However, there are increasing numbers of micro-businesses being set up by authors who also publish other author’s books so these perhaps count as indie publishers.
Indies are entrepreneurs and business-people
The Creative Penn is a limited company. My books and this site as well as my speaking are a business. I have an accountant and I do monthly accounts. I monitor cash-flow, income and expenses. Indie authors may not all have such a developed business but they treat their writing and publishing in a business-like manner. That means they have to think about financials but also sales & marketing as well as production on top of the creative side. They basically act like a small press and can be defined as micro-entrepreneurs.
This entrepreneurial attitude also spills into why people go indie in the first place. We like speed and we like control. Taking action and seeing what works comes naturally, and jumping into new media, new technologies and opportunities is part of what we do. By the time I had written my first novel, I already had a platform so it was worth the experiment to publish immediately and see what happened. As the great entrepreneurs say, fail fast, fail often and then go with what works.
Indies employ professionals as publishing involves teamwork

We all need editors!
I understand how the term self-publishing can be judged as a misnomer because we don’t do it all ourselves. We have a team in the same way big publishers do.
One of the biggest criticisms of self-publishing is the poor quality of the finished product which is why it’s important to take these extra steps.
As indies, we budget for and employ professional editors, professional designers and formatters for digital and print books. We know the value of our work includes the way it is perceived on the page as well as the work itself. I have always used an editor but I am definitely guilty of doing a lot more myself with my earlier books (which at some point I will re-publish). No more. The charge of bad quality is one we can avoid by investing in a collaborative process.
Indies are still interested in ‘traditional’ book deals
There is a vocal camp that have now sworn off traditional publishing forever but I think most indies are still interested in a publishing deal, if it offers something they can’t do or don’t want to do themselves.
Most indies don’t hate mainstream publishing either, despite the noisy few who make it look like we do.
In actual fact, we are all book lovers and advocates of reading in whatever form people want to consume. We all want the publishing industry to thrive and for readers to continue to buy lots of books and in fact, most authors are also huge consumers of books. Many of the big earning indie authors have been picked up by traditional publishing in some form. Amanda Hocking is the most famous with her St Martin’s Press deal of over $2million. John Locke took a print distribution deal with Simon & Schuster. Joe Konrath & Barry Eisler signed with Amazon Encore for some of their books which isn’t one of the Big 6 right now, but may soon be. Their secret contracts are rumored to be much better for authors than other publishers but it’s still not purely indie anymore, although many of these authors still continue to do their own work for other books. The hybrid model where some books are traditionally published and others are indie published seem to be growing and is perhaps the sweet spot for the most successful authors. It’s certainly where I would like to get to myself.
What does indie mean to you? Do you identify as an indie?
Top Image: istockphoto.com & other one is my own edits on Prophecy
























{ 85 comments… read them below or add one }
← Previous Comments
I guess I will never be an Indie. For one thing I know from past experience that I am not a businessman having failed miserably at it once. Being retired on a fixed income I cannot afford to hire professionals to do editing and other essentials. I basically rely on family and friends to help in proofing my work. Although I have a traditionally published text book, (which I am very proud of) and novel that was touted as being traditionally published by “Publish America”, the remainder of my works have been self published through blurb and amazon kindle. I continue to write because I love it and I have stories to tell. Where does that put me on the list? Even though I would greatly enjoy making some money at this, if I was after the money I would have quit a long time ago.
Bill
Bill, I think it’s fine to just be writing as more of a hobby so don’t worry about that. Writing because you love it is marvellous. Carry on, please!
Very good post, a lot of interesting points made.
I think the indie label is mostly useful because self-publishing has such a negative connotation from all the years of badly produced, badly edited books. I put my book of shorts on the Kindle store essentially as an experiment. E-publishing didn’t exist when I started writing seriously, and while previously I had said I would never self-publish I just couldn’t see a good reason not to. I wrote a blog post about it a while back, here’s a link to it; http://tobywallis.net/2011/10/13/before-you-were-born/. Indie publishing and self-publishing may be basically the same thing but ultimately writers are looking for readers and readers are looking for good books. Easier and cheaper self-publishing gives us another avenue to try and make that happen and if referring to it as Indie helps to throw off some of the negativity that follows the self-publishing label then that’s a good thing.
Hi Joanna – great post and sorry I missed it last time around. And, Toby, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I’ve recently self-published The Secret Lake (a children’s book) and given it the imprint Well Said Press through my company Well Said Limited (which is my writing consultancy). I’ve been lucky enough to get it into quite a few bookshops here in London – and it was interesting hearing the book buyers once or twice suggesting I check with ‘the publisher’ on a couple of things – and that was because when speaking to them face to face or talking them through my website and the book I avoided using the term ‘self-published’. I’ve today blogged about my experience of marketing the book but failed to mention this – I’ll make a point of updating it in the next couple of days and referring over here, Joanna. I know that I have produced a quality book (and the review from the ex Head Reader at Puffin UK would seem to back me up!) – it’s just frustrating to feel that I have to tip-toe around the fact that I’ve published myself.
Interestingly I was at a children’s publishing conference in November where it was clear from a couple of panel questions that self-published authors were considered to live in a separate (less relevant) world – and I know from a couple of sources that mainstream journalists do not consider self-published books for review. Hopefully perceptions will change over time as good quality indie authors get noticed more.
I write non-fiction books as an indie author, and I use my books to promote my speaking, workshops, seminars, and consulting (and classical guitar performances in another channel); I also use my speaking, worshops, seminars, and consulting to promote my books (and classical guitar performances).
I think there’s more opportunity to expand the income circle in non-fiction than in fiction in the indie author world. I created my own publishing company (Kings Crown Publishing.com) for all my books and funnel all revenue through the publishing business. I don’t go out of my way to tell folks that I own the publishing company because it’s not relevant to my target audiences.
I don’t publish the works of other authors (I have used a pseudonym for books I write in the Job/Career Strategy channel to protect my brand in the Christian and classical music markets), so it’s entirely an enterprise that promotes my own work with the help of trusted professionals I use (editors, proofreaders, PR, etc.).
But the plain truth is that a lot of junk is being self-published by people more enamored with seeing their name in print or being called “an author” than actually publishing quality work. They refuse to perform due diligence on the market, the genre, competing titles, etc. Gordon Burgett, a prolific indie author/publisher has a mantra that bears repeating: “Amateurs write, then try to sell; professionals sell, then write.” Eventually, the quality of one’s work and the skill with which that work is created, marketed, and promoted will be assessed by the buying public.
OK, climbing down off the soapbox and getting back to my next book draft…
I’ve recently blogged about this myself. I’ve actually done a bit of everything – been published mainstream, self-published and been published by small press and actually am a small press publisher. I’m a bit of a gatekeeper too – I review books that wow me so much they take me out of my editor’s head. There’s a couple of “self-published” in there.
But I do worry about the new gatekeepers and the trend towards crowdfunding because it’s coming down to how popular a person is. Now, I’m slightly ugly, a bit of a grumpy old woman – though acutally I love people but I don’t have much patience with imbeciles and I’ve actually just turned 60 so there’s all that goes with that. I’m getting slightly agrophobic, too. What chance have my books got with a parent like that? (Actually, they’ve got some nicce reviews but sales could do with being a bit higher). So, the “traditonal” publisher will circumvent much of that even though they’ll still expect us to do our bit – and I wouldn’t dream of not doing it.
I actually think the traditional publishers need to look again at how they make choices and how they publish.
I definitely relate to the “indie” label. My wife and I have self-published non-fiction books since 2006 through our own corporate publishing imprint. I’m just finishing my first fantasy fiction novel (to be released on January 31!), and we will publish that book ourselves as well, but we’ll probably create a new imprint for it.
I’ve been reading a lot of self-published work lately, and I haven’t found the books to be any better or worse from a story standpoint than the many, many books I’ve read over the years from traditional publishers. I do agree that the quality of the editing is often lower, but that is something that can be easily fixed. I try to mark errors when I find them and pass them on to the author for correction. I also find errors in trad-published books; those bother me more because the publishers are charging three or more times the money for their books.
Lately, I’ve seen opinions (including in the comments here) that the industry should have some kind of “quality seal” for self-published books. Why? We don’t have one for trad books, and those can be rubbish too! I think the crowdsourced review and rating system we have now is sufficient, if imperfect. Any “official” rating system would instantly become political and eventually be gamed, just as the bestseller lists are gamed now.
Your article is a nice nice overview of the issues. Thanks for writing it.
Thanks for your essay. You nicely address the need for a good definition of “indie author”. Your post, though, seems to define an “Indie Author” as someone who intends to sell self-published books. I have always made my anthologies available for free, yet I do not consider my writing to be a “hobby”. I write full time; I strive to write as professionally as possible; I attend writers’ conferences; and I submit work to agents in search of a traditional publishing contract. I have had some success. My anthologies are among the top 100 downloaded works on Smashwords and have sales ranks between 1300 and 2500 on Barnes and Noble. I give away my writing for free as part of a long-term strategy, as described in my blog (http://ashleyzacharias.wordpress.com/2010/12/30/my-long-term-authorial-strategy/).
I hope that the critical part of your definition is the independence of the author and does not exclude people like me who do not try to sell our books.
Hi Ashley, I wouldn’t dream of excluding anyone – you can claim the word for yourself regardless of my thoughts! It sounds like you have lots of fans.
However, I would say that as an entrepreneur, free is definitely part of the strategy but in order to pay the bills with writing, there does need to be some selling involved. But perhaps that is the entrepreneur aspect and not the indie part. Thanks.
This is a great article, it answers a lot of questions about indie authors. When I was younger a writer came into where I was working (a printshop) and I told him, “I want to be a writer.”
He looked at me and said, “You either are a writer or you are not, it is not something you can become.”
This opportunity to be an indie author is great for that young writer that wants to get thier ideas and stories to the masses. I am glad for this opportunity, and thank you for validating that process. There is a business side, unfortunately we all cannot drink bourdeaux and sit by the pool waiting for the next big idea to come wafting in on the wind, we have to push our stories, sell our ideas and run the business shrewdly.
So now I must get to the business of writing, but thank you – By the way, I am putting “indie author” on my twitter bio.
Hi Thomas:
Agreed…the easiest part of the whole “indie author” model is writing the book. As a publisher/indie author (I went the formal publishing route twice, which was twice too many), I’m constantly looking for ways to stretch my marketing and PR dollars with as many freebies and low-cost avenues as possible. All my information distribution activities (writing, speaking, workshops, blogging, website(s), teaching, consulting, classical guitar performances, etc.) are linked to promote the other faces of what I offer. I always find time to write or practice on my classical guitar, but finding the time to promote…well, that requires more discipline on my part than more time
Great and informative article, and I signed up to your site! I have a million questions on this topic. But the most important one for me is whether or not I should self-pub or try for a publisher?! This is my first novel and it will be a series. I have a good friend who is also an artist and has done the cover of someone elses book, and I like the fact that he will do the cover the way I want him too. In a perfect world, I would love to get a publisher that is willing to use the cover I want and won’t make me wait two years to get published. I am really struggling with the best way to go. Thanks for your insight and I hope that you give me some needed advise.
Hi Lisa,
There are pros and cons of each – these are my pros right now for indie, given the above caveats of getting pro editing & cover design:
* Control
* Speed of publishing
* Global sales in an expanding digital market.
* 35% or 70% royalty
* Payment by check/bank transfer/ Paypal 90 days after sale.
* Transparency in reporting daily. Impact of marketing trackable.
* Direct relationship with readers
* Experimentation. Gatekeepers are readers.
and pros for traditional:
* Kudos and prestige
* Having books in bookstores
* Developmental editor over time – but this is debatable given I can hire one myself as a serious indie
You can just reverse the pros for the cons of the other.
You’ll have to weigh up what you want for your book. But you definitely won’t get a traditional publisher who will use your cover and not make you wait!
I hope that helps…. my personal goal is to become a hybrid – an author with books in New York publishing and also a whole lot on indie so I can combine both options. For this, I need more books
Thanks Joanna,
I appreciate your pro and con list, and I am in agreement with you, self-pub seems the way to go. I have been looking into this for several months, and the thought of having to wait possibly 2 years just to go with a big named pub house does not appeal to me, especially since it has taken me 3 years to get my book at the point of being ready to publish. I am leaning with the self-pub! Thanks again!
Lisa:
Let me pass along some advice the great Gordon Burgett once gave out in a writing seminar: “Professional writers sell, then write; amateurs write, then try to sell.” Essentially, Gordon was telling everyone to line up a publisher or buyer (magazine editor, for example) first before you commit years to writing a book or months to writing an article. Sample chapters, chapter synopses, character bios–all those things fiction publishers want to see first…and if it’s a submission sent in by someone other than an agent, they probably won’t ever look at it (no guarantees they’ll look at if it comes in from an agent either, unless the agent is well known and your name is already a household name).
Why do you want to publish? Is it the satisfaction of seeing your creative effort in a tangible form or do you want to try to make money from it? The realities of the publishing world today suggest that if your reasons are for self-satisfaction of being in print, you’ll be a much happier than thinking you’ll reap financial reward from your fiction.
That being said, there’s a teenage author who wrote a fiction series (in ebook format) and sold each book for $.99. In one month, she had 700,000 downloads for one of her books in the series (probably vampires and teenagers, which is already an overdone genre), but nonetheless, the digital option offer promise for several reasons: as author and publisher, you are more in control of things; it’s less expensive (but you still need a graphics designer, editor, proofreader, etc.), and ebooks are still growing. In fact, I think last year digital book sales exceeded physical books sales on Amazon.com.
REALLY do the research to weigh all the pros and cons; research the market to see if competing titles have already been published; check out the Independent Book Publishers Association website and the Small Publishers and Writers Network (SPAWN-I think that’s the acronym) for loads of good information. Get the Writer’s Market and study it to see who is buying what and which publishes are receptive to new authors.
Good luck!
Thanks Donn, I appreciate the advice! I will check out those sites, but it looks like I am still leaning toward self-pub. I like the idea of not having to wait for years to get published, and no, I am not one of those who needs to be published by a big name. I do want to have my book available for hard cover though, and I will remember the advice of book on demand! Thanks again!
Hi Lisa. A word about hardcover: you can do print-on-demand hardcover, but you need to go through Lightning Source instead of CreateSpace for that. You can still use CreateSpace for the paperback version if you want. The paperback and hardback editions have separate ISBN’s and separate file uploads anyway. You can always do the paperback through Lightning Source as well, of course.
Another resource for learning about your options is the Self-Publishers Online Conference. [Disclaimer: My company sponsors that event and I'm a speaker, so yes I'm biased.] It does cost money ($97 early bird), but you get access to tons of up-to-date information (which is important given how fast things are changing) about self publishing from recognized experts in the industry. Best of all, you can ask questions and get immediate answers! My comment signature is a link to the site in case you want to check it out.
Thanks James, I will check it out! I did mean paperback, lol! Although, I could always order it hard back for me and close friends. I just meant I didn’t want it only available in download. Thanks for the advice!
Donn, I’m puzzled by this as all agents & publishers say fiction authors should finish the book before they pitch.
The exception is once they have an agent sorted – but first time authors need to finish the book first.
Hi Joanna:
I should have prefaced my comment with “my experience with publishers and fiction is a bit dated and limited…” as that was what happened with a novel I was pitching let us say “a few years back” (before digital publishing had any feet). If they liked what they read in sample chapters, chapter synopses, and detailed character bios, then they would ask for the rest of the project. The only fiction I ever wrote was a series of short stories for a contest that I won (very nice first prize included $$ and a weekend at a resort hotel) and maybe one day I’ll try my hand at it again…if I can find the time
Cheers,
Donn
This article sure cleared up a lot questions that I have about Indie authors. I was checking out Smashwords for ebooks on camping. Thanks for putting together this article.
Fracturing and internal differentiation are marks of any growing movement. This debate in itself speaks volumes.
Cheers to that.
The first thing I think of is independent film makers who go outside the studio to make films, sometimes under very limited circumstances and money. They focus on making the film good, market it, and even submit it for awards. No one criticizes the films because they weren’t made by a big studio.
Yet, I mention indie, and another writer sneeringly says, “No, you’re not indie, you’re self-published,” as if he were trying to put me in the place he thinks I should be in. There’s a huge different between someone dashing off a book and throwing it up and someone taking the time to figure out how to market it and what will help sell in the best.
Let’s try to ignore the nay-sayers and prove our worth by producing a quality product that sells
I couldn’t agree more with Joanna…and just to prove her point (and not to brag, well…not too much anyway):
After leaving the Dark Side of traditional publishing, I went the independent author route with my books, publishing them through my own publishing company. My first book was the Winner of the 2011 Global eBook Award for Christian Non-Fiction; my second book was the Runner-Up of the 2011 Global eBook Award for the Performing Arts and is a Finalist for the 2012 International Book Awards for Performing Arts/Music; my third book is a Finalist for the 2012 Global eBook Awards and a Finalist for the 2012 International Book Awards. I didn’t enter my fourth book into any contests.
When I updated the covers with the graphic of the award stickers, I noticed a marked increase in sales–especially eBook (mostly Kindle) sales. The covers with the award graphics have helped to build my platform for my speaking engagements and workshops on job/career strategies, and increased requests for my classical guitar appearances.
Focus on developing a quality product and ignore the catcalls from people on the sidelines..
I enjoyed your article and the comments that followed. Myself, I’m not an Indie yet, but I am learning the process of self-publishing. Like many of the commenters, I have recently published two fiction books myself on amazon kindle. The fact I’m published and have gotten a couple of good ratings is exciting. To me it’s not about the $$$, as it is telling a good story people would enjoy. In time, the money will come.
I have read works from authors and poets back as far as William Blake and Robert Burns. Some of the pieces I thought needed lots of work, others were very well crafted. As a writer myself, I find that not everyone has the same audience based on their work, but it still is their work none the less. Though we may not like the style of some “authors” who need help, they did spend many hours if not years drafting the work they published. I read once There are those who write for publication, and those who write because they enjoy it and have a story to tell. Let them tell it and allow the readers to decide if it was good enough.
Loved everyone’s comments, they were all great!
Paul.
As an independent author/publisher (I publish only my own books that support my speaking, training, consulting platform), I’m finding that Kindle versions of my books are outselling the softcover versions by about 5:1. The exception: when I speak or do training sessions at conferences, association meetings, corporations, and universities–still working on getting into the military environment. I always have anywhere from 100 to 300 books on hand for such events and if I sell directly, I sell at the cover price; if the sponsoring organization buys the books, I give them a 40 to 50% discount (depending on the size of the order).
Last week I learned that two of my books were Winners at the 2012 International Book Awards. “Confessions of a Hiring Manager Rev. 2.0: Getting to and Staying at the Top of the Hiring Manager’s Short List in a Confused Economy” took First Place in the Business/Careers category and is a finalist in the 2012 Global eBook Awards (winners announced later).
The other book, “Instrumental Influences: Reflections on the Classical Guitar from the Instrument’s Most Influential Performers and Pedagogues” took First Place in the Performing Arts/Music category. This book was also Runner-Up in the 2011 Global eBook Awards.
Having your book covers adorned with the graphics/stickers announcing “Winner” really does help push sales (you have to push the marketing too to get the sales to move) and open up more consulting, speaking, and training opportunities when the book becomes “another brick in the wall” (and not the wall itself).
I have an indie publisher interested in my manuscript. I am not sure if this is a true indie publishing proposal because it sounds like they will cover much of the costs.
Hi Rick, Independent publishing means you have a budget and you spend the money upfront on editors, cover design etc and then you take 70% of the sales from Amazon etc. You manage the money. In traditional publishing, you get an advance and they cover the costs. Vanity publishers will ask you for money and charge a lot for the books. So just remember that indie means DIY with help from professionals.
My first book, Blessings in the Mire was published by Infinity Publishing, Inc. Since I am not the publisher, it’s difficult to say that I am “self-published” and as I was shopping publishing options for my next two books I again investigated Infinity as a possible choice. On their website, and in their handbook it says in bold itallics, “If you publish with Infinity, your book is not self-published.” Well then, what is it? Infinity isn’t an Indie Publisher. Are they a “POD”? It’s all so confusing. Now I am contemplating creating my own publishing company and really self-publishing my own stuff; I suppose that would make me an “Indie” publisher. It is such a rapidly changing (I struggle to say, evolving) publishing world. It used to be all we had to worry about was writing and editing. Now, even with traditional houses and with whatever Infinity is, we are in charge of so much more. It almost makes sense to take it all on ourselves, or at least stick with the past publisher and wonder what the difference is in PODs and Vanity. Or maybe I’ll stick them all on Amazon and buy a Kindle and get back to doing what I do best: Write them. Add now to the mix, the Espresso Book Machine, and I’m back to wondering about Print On Demand. Madness. It’s lightning-speed madness.
At any rate, I do appreciate your information here. Any comments are more than welcome.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the terminology Jan – just decide what your goals are as an author and then find the right options to achieve those goals.
Joanna, thanks for the response. I have about decided to create my own publishing house and really self-publish. I have many books completed, with some in the final editing stages, so it seems the next logical step is to simply become the publisher too. (Because clearly, things weren’t crazy mad enough so I need to add another heaping to my plate!) So I guess that will make me a self-published Indie publisher….
Thanks again. You do a wonderful service here.
Hello folks,
Very interesting to read the comments.
With my hand on my heart, I didn`t realise I was a ‘vanity publisher’.
I wrote my books with only one thing in mind – to preserve our social history.
I`ve written and released three books to date.
As a one-man operation (apart from the printing and binding)… I`ve found by self-publishing my works, that it`s a great way to get my books to the people that are potential buyers and getting paid first hand by such.
Hi Johnny, it sounds like you did it all yourself which doesn’t make you a vanity publisher in the negative sense at all
all the best with your books!
Thank you so much. I am a new indie author and your posts, updates and resources are invaluable!
I have just started using hour website and find it very encouraging and helpful, thank you
. As a complete novice (first novel in very early notes stage) and trying to get my head around the basics, self-publishing does sound pretty overwhelming and many people who have done it seem to have some experience in the book publishing world rather than none! I wondered if you have any views on whether this is the best route for first time authors?
Hi Claire, I’m glad you’re finding the site useful.
I had no experience in the publishing world and most self-publishers don’t so I’m not sure where you got that impression from
It can be overwhelming but start here: http://www.thecreativepenn.com/resources/
and also check out the Alliance of Independent Authors which has a whole raft of resources to help you on the journey: http://allianceindependentauthors.org/a/88
Hi Joanna thanks so much that is really helpful
← Previous Comments
{ 17 trackbacks }