I've been a fan of Jeremy Robinson's thrillers for a while now, and recently read the fantastic Island 731 about human/animal hybrid experimentation. I'm excited to bring you an interview with him today which goes into how he writes so prolifically, and how monsters invade his imagination.
- How Jeremy started out at art school and went into comic book illustration, and then into comic book writing, then screen-writing. After being inspired by a James Rollins novel, he moved into writing books.
- Monsters are a recurring theme in Jeremy’s books, including his recent book Island 731. He talks about his TV and film influences and why monsters have been part of his inspiration. ‘Island 731’ is about a crew stranded on an island that had been used for human experimentation during WWII.
- Jeremy writes horror under Jeremy Bishop, the first book was ‘Torment’ which is a very dark book based on a nightmare he had. The Raven is the next book in the Jane Harper series, coming soon, where Jane has to deal with parasitical zombies that can zombify anything mammal, whilst out on the high seas. Ridiculous fun!
- We talk about ‘I am Cowboy’, which is not a Western! Cowboy is the main character who first appeared in SecondWorld (about Nazis returning to take over the world). Cowboy is a conspiracy theorist obsessed with cowboy movies. He’s from the Czech Republic and he has a line ‘I am cowboy, I am gunslinger’.
- How much of Jeremy is in his characters? It depends on the characters – some of them are very similar. In the YA series, the Last Hunter, Solomon is based on 50% Jeremy and 50% on his son. But many of the characters are nothing like Jeremy – the books are not autobiographical!
- Jeremy talks about his writing space and you can see some of his Japanese movie monsters behind him in the video. He has a big office which is packed with pop culture objects, posters etc. It inspires him, and he does a lot of video as well as writing. He also paints and his kids play in the room.
- Jeremy's writing routine. He works 9-5, 5 days a week so he can make time for his family. He writes in the afternoon and in the morning, he does marketing. This is about 5 hours a day of writing, but he does write quickly about what he's going to write next. When he sits down to write, he knows what he will say. While writing a novel, it's about 3000 words a day with breaks between books.
- On novellas. Jeremy has been doing some novellas, mainly at the request of readers and based on fan demand. Some of the CHESS team series has been done with co-authors to ‘fill the gap' between the full-length books.
- On the varieties of publishing experience … Jeremy has done everything, from big publishers, to small press, to self-publishing. He continues to be a hybrid author, deciding per book which way to go. There are no rules in this industry!
- One of the dangers of being a new author now is that it is so easy that people are rushing into it too early. Jeremy wrote for over 10 years writing, without being paid, before he thought he was good enough. You need to be harsh on yourself and keep improving.
- On marketing. Jeremy does a lot of email and social media, responding to all comments from fans. He also creates book trailers and other videos, as well as doing interviews, designing his own covers and anything else that isn't writing. Jeremy does his own graphic design as he was originally an artist (not recommended for most authors though!)
- On book trailers and using video for marketing. Jeremy loves making videos and does trailers for each book as well as funny ‘viral' videos which get better traffic. You can check out his YouTube channel here. He talks about a recent video he did for Jeremy Bishop's The Raven – coming Aug 13th. He wouldn't pay for a video trailer if he couldn't make them himself, but it is fun!
- Top tips on writing thrillers. Write about a subject you are passionate about, or a character that excites you as an author as that will come through in the writing. Style-wise, tons of detail isn't necessary for fast pacing. Be professional – ask for criticism and learn from it, even from negative reviews.
I am Cowboy – out now!
The Sentinel – out now!
Chess Team: Prime – out now!
The Raven comes out Aug 13
Chess Team: Omega out in Sept
and from November, Jeremy Bishop is bringing out a series of novellas called Refuge.
Transcript of Interview with Jeremy Robinson
Hi, everyone. I'm a thriller author J.F Penn and today on Killer Thriller TV, I'm here with bestselling author Jeremy Robinson. Hi Jeremy!
Jeremy: Hi! It’s good to meet you.
Joanna: Yeah, it’s so good to have you on the show. I've been reading your books for a while, and I can now see you have nearly 30 novels, I think.
Jeremy: Novels and novellas, yeah.
Joanna: Which is stunning considering, from what I can see, you’re still a young man.
Jeremy: Thank you.
Joanna: So we are going to talk about that today.
First up, tell us a bit more about you and your writing background.
Jeremy: I actually started out as an artist. I went to school for art through college, and I wanted to be a comic book illustrator. And I did that for a few years, and I kind of had an epiphany along the way of, really what my heart was all about was storytelling. And so I actually went from illustrating comic books to writing comic books and then moved to screenwriting. I wrote 13 screenplays and lived in Los Angeles, and worked at an agency and did all that stuff. And then I read James Rollins’ novel, I think it was Subterranian, and I thought, “This is amazing. People are writing novels the way that I write screenplays.” And that kind of opened my mind to the possibility of writing novels and so I gave it a shot. And I‘ve been writing novels ever since.
Joanna: I’ve interviewed quite a few people who started with screenplays.
Do you think that understanding that screenplay structure helps you write such fast paced books?
Jeremy: I think so. I think it helps you write visually, because that's what you focus on. But that becomes a challenge then when you start writing novels just to think about other senses. Because you’re actually not allowed to put those in the screenplays because you’re only writing for what people can see and hear. And with novels you’re writing for all senses.
But in terms of pacing, I think it helps in terms of plot structure. It definitely helps because it’s so rigid in Hollywood. And in some ways it’s then liberating to that switch to the novel format, and you can just write so much more, whereas screenplays you are really restricted to 120 pages.
Joanna: I’ve read a number of your books, including your recent Island 731, which was just amazing.
Monsters seem to be a real fear of yours. Talk about why you love monsters and a couple of examples of your favorite ones.
Jeremy: I'm sure a psychologist would come up with a formal reason for why I like monsters. But I would say it’s just from a childhood, growing up watching Godzilla. Here in New England, we had Creature Double Feature, which was every Saturday morning we would watch two monster movies, and Ray Harryhausen. I grew up on science fiction and monster television basically, and movies. And this really just kind of stayed with me my whole life.
When writing, sometimes I won't have monsters, I think there’s maybe one or two novels of mine that don't have monsters. And I get a little bit bored without them for some reason. I really write about good and evil a lot and monsters kind of are a physical epitome of evil for me.
Joanna: Tell people a bit about Island 731, because I thought it was a fantastic book.
Jeremy: It's about a crew that is stranded on an island that once was used as a secret laboratory for Japan’s notorious Unit 731, which was their research and development…well that's kind of a way of saying what they did. They did human experimentation, vivisection, and all these horrible things that I didn't know about until I started researching atrocities during World War Two. And most people know about Unit 731, so I thought that was an interesting thing to pull into it. The question that I asked is, “What would they look like if they had continued their research through to the present day?” And so what is on the island is kind of my answer to that question.
Joanna: Mmm, and there are some scary monsters in that.
Jeremy: Yes. It came out really dark, it's one of my darker novels.
Joanna: Maybe that's why I enjoyed it because I definitely work in a sort of… towards horror. And talking of horror, you’re also Jeremy Bishop.
Jeremy: I am.
Joanna: How does he compare with Jeremy Robinson and what’s he doing at the moment?
Jeremy: Jeremy Bishop is a horror author, so he is more dark in general. The first novel that I wrote as Jeremy Bishop was Torment, and it's horribly dark and awful. I'm on a reread of it. It was based on a nightmare I had, so the first 25% is actually a nightmare that I had and then kind of builds from there.
And after writing Torment, I decided that Jeremy Bishop needed to write something a little more light-hearted. So I came up with the Jane Harper series, so it's a very sarcastic woman who is dealing with Viking zombies and zombie whales and…so it's very horror based and very gory, but it's also very funny. The Sentinel was the first one that I published myself as for Jane Harper, and then Amazon actually came in and is re-publishing The Sentinel. That came out last month, and then The Raven is the sequel to The Sentinel, and that comes out on August 13.
Joanna: Tell us a bit about The Raven. What's that all about?
Jeremy: The Raven picks up where The Sentinel left off. And I’m not sure how much I should say about what that is. Jane Harper is dealing with zombies that can control or turn into a zombie anything mammal. So it's not just people. And it takes place on the ocean, and involves a cruise liner and a bunch of whales and a whaling ship that is out of fittage for killing giant zombie mammals in the ocean. It's a lot of fun. It's ridiculous fun.
Joanna: That certainly does sound a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to that one. It’s interesting asking about each of your different books, because you obviously, just your imagination just runs by. But the one I’ve just seen is, just when I looking on Amazon is that I Am Cowboy, which obviously the word cowboy sounds like a western, but it's not a western, is it?
Jeremy: No, the irony is that I hate westerns.
Joanna: Well, I was going to say, I’m not a particular fan of westerns.
Why would someone who is not a fan of a western read I Am Cowboy?
Jeremy: Cowboy is the main character, and he is from my novel Second World, which is a really fast paced novel about Nazis coming back in the present day and trying to take over the world and kill everybody. Cowboy was one of the characters in that novel. He was a conspiracy theorist who was also obsessed with cowboy movies. And so, he wears the hat, he has the two guns, wears the cowboy boots, and he is from the Czech Republic. So he has a Czech accent and one of his lines in the movie that I get a lot of fan mail about is, “I am cowboy, I am gun slinger.” And so I named the first cowboy-only novella I Am Cowboy. And if I do a second one, it will be I Am Gun Slinger.”
Joanna: And then I know people always hate the question.
You do have all of these different books and different things going on. Do you get your ideas from those childhood movies or how do you refresh your creativeness at the moment?
Jeremy: Certainly some of it comes from early childhood. Last November published a novel titled Project Nemesis, which is about a 300-foot tall giant monster that storms down the northeast of America and destroyed Boston. And so that's obviously influenced by Godzilla, which I watched religiously throughout my childhood.
As a novelist I kind of think about what most makes me happy really and what fuels my imagination. And then I get to put my own spin on that, and sometimes I just come out of straight research, just out of reading science magazines, but a lot of times it’s based on the things that have inspired me throughout my life.
Joanna: I mean, in Second World there is a guy, you know, he opens to the guy underwater, and he comes up and you know, the earth is kind of changed, there’s no oxygen.
I wondered about him and about your characters. How much of you is in your characters?
Jeremy: It depends on the character. Some of them are very similar to me. In my young adult series The Last Hunter, the main character is Solomon, who is 50% based on my son Solomon, and 50% based on me as a child. So it starts out in the early 80s and all of Solomon's experiences in the early part of the first book is basically me. And then he becomes my son reacting to all the horrible things that are happening around him in the remaining five books. But there are also many characters that are very different from me and very different in terms of what they believe and what they say.
I sometimes get angry reviews or angry mail about how I hate Obama or hate President Bush or…So I get both sides, or how I'm trying to convert everyone to a certain religion. What I think a lot of readers don’t realize that my characters are free to be whoever they are. And I personally might totally disagree with them, or if I knew them, even my good guys, I might dislike them. So just because someone in my book strongly…what's the word? Strongly…
Joanna: Expresses an opinion?
Jeremy: Believes in something, doesn't necessarily mean that I share that belief.
Joanna: And after so many books, I mean yeah, you can pretty much make stuff up. This is not autobiographical anymore.
Jeremy: Exactly. I also don't want Boston to be destroyed by a 300-foot monster, like…
Jeremy: Sure. So…
Joanna: Right, and of course, there’s loads of excitement and fast pace in your books.
I wondered, are you as exciting as your protagonists and what kind of thrilling adventures have you had in your life?
Jeremy: I am not that exciting, and primarily because I write so much. Most of my time is spent in the office writing or with my kids. So I mean, that's an adventure. I have three children who are all very young and like to play in my office while I work. My biggest adventure, I guess I've crossed the country a few times. I think I’ve seen 37 of the 50 states. But haven't done a lot of world traveling. That's the plan for the future, is to become a successful author and be able to travel, but yeah…I’m not nearly as exciting as my characters. My whole life has been kind of living in an imaginary world.
Joanna: Which is why we’re writers.
Jeremy: Exactly. I could not handle the things that I put my characters through.
Joanna: Yeah. Well, I think, and this is a common thing I think with thriller writers. We deal with all this stuff in the books, but we live quite a quiet life.
Jeremy: Yes, correct.
Joanna: What is your writing space like? I can see behind you there is a little dinosaur on your shoulder there. You’ve got action figures all over the house.
Jeremy: These guys are Godzilla and King Kong and Gamera and all those kind of Japanese movie monsters. The rest of the room, there are a lot of toys. There’s Transformers and other movie characters and a lot of paintings and posters. I’m surrounded by the pop culture that inspires me.
It’s a pretty big space in terms of offices. I think it's 800 square feet, but I feel it, because I work on a lot of different things, do a lot of video production. We just filmed a commercial in the office yesterday and that was about six people in here. We had to re-arrange everything. I like my office to be fully functional in terms of doing art. I paint and a lot of video stuff. And so I like the whole space to be able to be used.
Joanna: Video stuff, is that video stuff for readers?
I mean, do you produce films as well? I didn't know about that side.
Jeremy: In the past I’ve done video blogs, I do video trailers for all my books, and I do those myself. I have done a lot of viral video campaigns for my books, which are usually ridiculous and embarrassing, but I do them anyways because they’re fun. I did 10 viral videos for Antarktos Rising when that first that came out and then for a humor book I wrote about ninjas, we we did a bunch of ninja videos. In yesterday’s video, the commercial, I was actually more of a big deal than all the other ones I did before, which were kind of just me and my friends and a camera.
Usually, I do the videos with my friends and it's just kind of a low budget deal and we all have pizza and have fun. Yesterday was a promotional video for The Raven, and I wrote a script for it and pitched it to Amazon, and they actually agreed to pay for it, so we have a director, a sound person, make-up and a puppeteer. So, yesterday was like a real production and the video for that will be available on the 13th when The Raven comes out, and it's again, ridiculous and potentially embarrassing. I think especially writers are going to appreciate it because it's got some humor about being a writer. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Joanna: That sounds awesome. You are seriously prolific. You seem to put out books, novellas all the time.
What is your writing routine and how do you manage to output so much?
Jeremy: I generally work 9:00 to 5:00, 5 days a week. I try and leave a lot time for my family just like anyone else. I think I get even more time with them because I don't commute, I just kind of walk up the stairs. I write most of the time just in the afternoon because in the morning I do promotional stuff, marketing.
I am writing maybe five hours a day. During that time I write fairly quickly because between any quiet moment I get, I’m daydreaming about what I’m going to write next, so when I actually sit down to write I already know what I’m going to be writing for the day, so all I have to do is hit the keys until I’m done. Generally I write about 3000 words a day when I’m writing a novel.
There could be a month in between writing one book and the next, or maybe just a couple of days. I did the math once and writing 3000 words a day, I think I could get like 12 books done a year if I could really did 3000 words a day. So, I do six. I’m not working as hard as I could be.
Joanna: And you also space out, you’re doing more novellas as well now.
Is this a marketing thing or really a writing thing that you’re writing that length?
Jeremy: I Am Cowboy was written by myself by myself and I did 8 novellas for my Jack Sigler Chess Team series, but those were written with co-authors, so I had help with those. And in general, the novellas are in response to fan demand that I can't keep up with on my own, except for I Am Cowboy, so it’s one of the ways I try and listen and respond to my fans so a lot of people were giving me fan mail about Cowboy and asking for more Cowboy, so I decided, “All right, I’m just going to do this for the people who really want to see more Cowboy.”
When I did the Chess Team ones, it was because the third Chess Team book and the fourth Chess Team book, there was some delay between them because I was switching from publishing through Thomas Dunne to publishing myself. So I hired a couple of authors, and we put out the eight novellas to kind of fill the gap between the full-length books, basically just for fans so that they would have their yearly dose of Chess Team.
It’s not really for any other reason that that, they don't make more money than novels, they make less money than novels because not everyone wants to read a shorter book. But I like pleasing the readers, especially the fans who are the die hard fans. They’re the ones who are going to buy it, and those are the ones who are spreading words about all the books.
Joanna: Yeah, clearly. You mentioned Amazon; you have done the whole variety of publishing ventures as far as I can see. You've had a small press, you got a New York deal I think as well and you self-publish.
Where do you think this industry is now and is going in terms of new authors, because it’s very confusing.
Jeremy: It’s much more confusing than it used to be. It used to be that you just got an agent and then submitted it to everywhere. I actually didn't do that.
When I first published, I started self-publishing and my agent found me and then Thomas Dunne found me, and I have never stopped self-publishing because I write so much, and my publishers don't want to publish six books from one author in a year. So for me, it's really just a matter of covering all the bases. I know there’s a lot of authors that say you can only do it through Amazon or you can only do it through self-publishing or you can only do it through the basics. But I don't really see publishing as being one road or the other. I prefer to cover all my bases, so I am doing all three.
I don't know if there are any other authors doing all three. I don’t necessarily recommend it time wise, it is pretty stressful when you have multiple deadlines for multiple publishers and the editing departments in both companies do it differently, and I do it differently when I hire people. So it's definitely more work having three publishers, and for new authors, I wouldn't even know where to begin now.
I think that the one danger of being a new author now is self-publishing is so easy that I think a lot of people are rushing into it before they’re ready. I spent between 10 and 13 years writing full-time without being paid before I thought I was good enough, and before other people thought I was good enough. And I don't think a lot of people are getting that kind of feedback or kind of being that harsh on themselves. So you really need to be honest, I am still harsh on myself.
I think that's the danger that new writers face now. And I think you can use self-publishing as a tool to improve, where if you release a novel, you really have to pay attention to the reviews you get and then try and improve your writing and if you then want to sell that novel or if you get horrible reviews you can just pull it down and disappear, and you can change your name. I don't think there is any one sure way to do it now.
Joanna: In terms of a sure way to do anything, marketing would be the other thing and you mentioned there that in the mornings you do marketing, in the afternoons you write. I do the other way round actually.
What do you do in that morning of marketing?
Jeremy: A lot of it in the morning is social media. It’s just catching up with people, I try to respond to everyone on Facebook and on Twitter and through email and that can take one or two hours every morning just responding to people. And also, that's when I would work on creating the book trailers and or other videos, audio production…what else do I do? Everything in the morning. Mornings are confusing. Interviews. It’s basically anything that isn't writing takes place in the morning because if I have that stuff kind of hanging over me, I have to get it out of the way.
Joanna: Most people are either kind of a morning person or a night person but you, you are doing an afternoon person thing.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, I don't know which…I guess I would be a night person which is funny because I just can't sleep but I probably do some of my best writing when I’m lying in bed at night not sleeping, and then write it down the next day.
I actually do all my book covers myself…well I shouldn't say all of them, I do 80% of them myself, so that’s also what I’m doing in the morning. It's a lot of graphic design. It's also creative, so I have a lot of fun doing it just like I do with the novels. I have always done that since I was a kid, I have always been an artist. I think it's two totally different types of creativity where doing the art, it can almost clear my mind, which allows me creatively to really get into the writing after lunch. After lunch and Jon Stewart.
Joanna: Most people don’t have artistic skills so most authors should not do their covers, so people watching…
Jeremy: Absolutely not.
Joanna: Don't do your own cover.
Jeremy: Absolutely not. I was an artist for a long time, I went to art school, and I have been using Photoshop for about 20 years.
Jeremy: If you can do that, then maybe consider.
Joanna: But I do want to come back on the video, because I’m fascinated about you doing the book trailers.
I haven't really seen much evidence that book trailers sell to people who read books. I mean, do you do them just for fun or do they actually prove to sell books?
Jeremy: I mostly do them because I enjoy making them, and I think I do a pretty good job making them. I guess people have to go find them after watching this and see if I actually do a good job. For me, most of my trailers seem to get about 5000 hits, which is pretty good. And I’m not sure if those turn into sales, but I think most of the people seeing the videos are people who are going to buy the books already, so it helps them get excited about the book, maybe reminds them that the book is coming out, and it kind of makes my website look cool. It’s right at the top of the website.
The viral videos that I do are very different. I don't know how successful they are in translating to sales, but I know that they get a lot more views. There was one I did where it was like a fake carjacking where the guy who was being carjacked was reading my book, and he really didn’t pay attention to the person who was punching him in the face, and it was ridiculous but it's had I think around 300,000 views on Youtube. So in terms of getting your name out there, the viral videos can be a little bit better, but the book trailers…who knows.
The one I did for Amazon would fall more into the viral category rather than a traditional book trailer. It's not promotional about the book, it's just kind of like brand awareness, like this is Jeremy Bishop, this is the kind of things he does, and we are basically trying to entertain the people who are watching, we're not really saying, “This is what the new book is about, and you should go buy it.” So it's a totally different strategy than the typical book trailer. Which I think in general, book trailers aren't worth the time. I certainly would never pay for one myself. If I couldn't make them myself I wouldn't do them.
Joanna: No, I totally agree, and I’m glad you said that but I think everyone should go watch a couple of your videos and see what you do. But certainly, there's a lot of skill involved as well, so it’s not something to easily do. I do want to ask you also about writing thrillers, because we get obviously that writers want to write good thrillers, and you write good thrillers.
What would be the three things that are most important about writing a thriller that people want to read?
Jeremy: I think first you have to write about a subject that you are passionate about or a character that you’re passionate about. There has to be something in it that excites you as an author because if it lacks that then you’re going to get bored and your writing is going to get boring. There's probably the most important thing for me, and in some ways writing 30 novels has made that a challenge, because honestly how much can you be excited about?
So after Project Nemesis, which was my giant monster, and then my next hardcover which is-, it’s pronounced Zombie but it’s spelled X-O-M – B, I had kind of fulfilled every writing dream that I had, and over the last few months I’ve been wracking my brain, like what else am I excited about? Because you really need to find things that I am passionate about to write about.
I've spent the last few months doing a lot of research and reading a lot of magazines and books and trying to find those other subjects that aren't necessarily with me since childhood.
Second I would say for me personally, style wise I don't do tons of detail. I think adding even a paragraph description about a car is too much. Maybe a sentence, and there are a lot of novels that I put down when I get to pages of description, for me that just slows down. It doesn't really make it a thriller for me. I’m not sure what else you would call it, but even Michael Crichton, whose books I love and who were a great influence on me, I would skip pages of his science because he could do four or five pages of science in a row which didn't really propel the story forward. It was just kind of interesting science, and as interesting as it was I was reading about characters running away from dinosaurs, and I wanted to get back to the characters running away from dinosaurs. Yeah, so for me that’s a big one, is to keep the pace fast. And my pace is probably faster than most.
Joanna: It’s very fast.
Jeremy: Third, I would say for new writers, be professional. And that means take criticism, ask for criticism. When I finished my third novel for Thomas Dunne, I went to the editor and said, “We've done three books, we’re going to do some more, please tell me what I can do better” And he was like, “You are the first author to ever ask me that.” And really because I know I needed to continue to improve. I think working hard at improving, and asking for criticism.
A lot of people now are saying don't read your reviews on Amazon. And I understand why, because some of them are just stupid people writing mean things. But there are also a lot of people including fans who write constructive criticism and offer great opinions, and so I will actually read all my negative reviews and the ones that offer critique help me improve. And I think I have that outlook because I started in self-publishing, and a lot of the early critique I was getting were from readers rather than an editor, because I didn't have one then. So, I think for me, constantly trying to improve and be professional and conduct business with my agent and my editors in the most pleasant way possible is the way to go. And I think that will always produce better books.
Joanna: Brilliant too, what can people expect from you in the next few months I guess?
Jeremy: Oooh boy, let's see. I Am Cowboy just came out. The re-release of The Sentinel just came out and then next week I will releasing a prequel to the Chess Team series that is titled Prime and was co-authored with Sean Ellis who wrote a lot of the Chess Team novellas with me. After Prime is The Raven on August 13. We're up to four books already in just three months, and in September will be Omega, which is the fifth book in the Chess Team series. So we have Prime, which is the beginning of the Chess Team, kind of how the team all came together and then Omega, which might be the final book in the series coming out in September. Now October I might get a break and November will be the sequel to Project Nemesis, which is currently titled Nemesis Rising, and then, am I up to six months?
Jeremy: Oh, Jeremy Bishop has five novellas coming out starting in November. That series is titled Refuge, so that will be November, and then every two weeks through January. I think we can probably start there, I think I probably have another book coming out after that.
Joanna: I think, I think every writer who’s just listening is just going, “Oh my goodness, you just…” I mean who can keep up with this? It's amazing. It’s great to talk to you. So where can people find you and your books online?
Jeremy: Online? Online you can find me at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any other book seller. All my books are available on Audible and iTunes as audiobooks, which is something that just finished happening about a month ago. I finally got all of them up on audio. You can find most of my traditionally published books with hard covers and mass market paperbacks in any store in America. A little bit harder where you are to find.
Joanna: And your website?
Joanna: Fantastic. Well thanks so much for your time Jeremy. That was brilliant.
Jeremy: Thank you.
Joanna: Thanks for listening today. I hope you found it helpful. You might also like the backlist episodes at thecreativepenn.com/podcasts. You can also get your free Author 2.0 blueprint at thecreativepenn.com/blueprint. If you’d like to connect, you can tweet me @thecreativepenn or find me on Facebook @thecreativepenn. See you next time.